I want to respond to what Momnipotent said here :

"MamaButterfly, I watched like 2 seconds of that video, and saw that they were saying vaccines cause autism, and it lost all credibility in my eyes so I turned it off. There was one academic study a long time ago that said that thimerosal caused autism, and then every other academic study since then has refuted that - and, all of the original study's authors have withdrawn the study except one, the lead author, who is now under investigation for academic misconduct on something unrelated. I just don't buy that there's a link. And if there is, why is autism still on the rise when thimerosal has been removed from most vaccines?"

That is correct about that being the only academic study, as well as it being the one that brought on the whole thimerosal in vaccines issue. BUT, there has been a successful lawsuit in which the courts conceded that vaccines (specifically thimerosal containing vaccines) significantly contributed to a case of "autism".

What the court found was that the child who had a mitochondrial disorder that when the vaccinations were introduced produced autism (or symptoms that mimic autism at the very least). The child was developing normally until she had a series of injections at one time, and immediately began regressing. So, according to US federal court IF a child had this disorder, then yes a vaccine containing thimerosal could produce a spectrum type reaction in the child. The disorder itself is very uncommon, so it's highly unlikely that a random child will get a vaccine and suddenly "become" autistic. The problem is, you wouldn't know if your child had that mitochondrial disorder until it was too late.

I don't think that little bit of evidence should be enough for most parents to not vaccinate on the off chance that there child has this mitochondrial problem. BUT, as a person on the spectrum with two children with mild spectrum issues, it is enough for me to think twice about vaccinating. I mostly don't vaccinate, and I will admit that that little piece of information did play a small part in my continuing decision not to routinely vaccinate, because I believe that it is significant enough considering my family's circumstances, to warrant being leary.

I think that a lot of parents who have a child on the spectrum, especially one who had the regression right after being vaccinated, will be very careful vaccinating subsequent children because of this finding. Mitochondrial disorders tend to be hereditary, although they are finding that to be less likely in children who have both the disorder and are on the spectrum. But, not a whole lot is known about this at this time, and I do agree that it could be cause for concern in a certain subset of the population.

Here's a few articles about that particular case :
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0%2C8599%2C1721109%2C00.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/06/vaccines.autism/index.html

(While I was looking up sources for that case, I came across some things that suggested that 1. that cases have been won before this through the vaccine injury compensation fund where the symptoms the child had were exactly the same as symptoms of the spectrum and 2. That there have been cases since where the child was diagnosed with autism, but the parents/lawyers chose to go through vaccine court alleging that the vaccines caused brain damage. The brain damage was the underlying cause of their autism, but by not bringing up the actual "autism" diagnosis, they were also successful in their lawsuit. When my head isn't spinning from having 5 kids here and a horrible toothache, I will do some more research to see if I can find sources to substantiate those claims.)

I work with developmentally disabled adults, and many of my clients are autistic. One parent I spoke with told me her son was developing completely normally until he received the pertussis vaccine. He is severely autistic.

Also, I am wary in general of chemicals. Chemicals that were claimed to be "safe" in the past have been found later to cause many diseases, including cancer. I just don't trust the government, at all, to tell me what is and isn't safe, and I especially don't trust mainstream media. As far as the H1N1 is concerned, it is too brand new to be properly tested, and there is no way I am risking exposing myself or my kids to something of which the effects remain unknown.

Well, for me the point is that lawyers are not scientists and no scientific study has found a link. Anecdotes don't work for me either, they are based so much on an individual's perception of reality that, although they're great for launching investigations, at the end of the day I'm gonna go with what can be proven. I think at the end of the day there are proven benefits to (most!) vaccines, and risks are either really rare or not proven. It's about weighing risks and benefits.

Re: chemicals in vaccines. Well, chemicals are all around us. Not sure if I posted on the other thread that there is more mercury in a tuna sandwich than in this vaccine. I eat Kraft Dinner, I use regular old shampoo, I sometimes drink from plastic cups. I mean, I'm not saying we should give up and just accept chemicals and metals all around us, not at all. But when we are exposed to them regularly, I don't see the point in refusing a small amount of them a few times over the course of one's life when there is likely a benefit to them. I prefer to focus my energy on exposure to chemicals that is not beneficial and is more regular and out of my control. That makes me far more uncomfortable.

I didn't really use any anecdotes. I was citing a case proven in court, which is a little bit more than just what lawyers know. It's about the scientific experts for the defense not being able to successfully argue against the scientific evidence presented by the prosecution. Either way, like I said it has no bearing on whether or not to get the H1N1 vaccine. I just wanted to get the facts straight.

I am very wary of chemicals. I don't use plastic dishes, I buy as much local and organic as possible, I buy natural cleaning products, and I filter my water. True, chemicals are all around us. And so is cancer and many other diseases. I try to reduce my exposure to chemicals as much as possible.

CM, I was referring to the anecdote MB posted.

Here's an interesting study related to flu vaxes in general:

http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004879/frame.html

Basically, for people who are not immuno-compromised (and remember that pregnant people are immuno-compromised, which is why H1N1 is more deadly for pregnant people), the efficacy for the vax is only 59%. The live vax form has a significantly greater efficacy (82%), but it is contradicted for almost all people who are at greater risk for swine flu. The thing about using a live vax, of course, is that you are contagious and can pass (albeit a weakened) form of the virus. From the standpoint of herd immunity, I'm not sure how well it protects immuno-compromised people to get a vax that can spread the disease (though if people have info on this, I'd be interested in seeing it). I have yet to see studies on efficacy of the various swine flu vaxes - as far as I know, they haven't been released yet. However, I think it's worth keeping in mind that when you choose to do this vax, even if you are not immuno-compromised, it has a little bit better than a 50/50 efficacy rate if you do the inactivated virus, and that rate is likely to be lower for pregnant people, if this virus acts like other flu vaxes.

That's really interesting, thanks for posting. I really like that website and had forgotten what it was called, so I'm extra glad you posted it.

I heard on the radio today that it looks like swine flu activity is increasing.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/05/h1n1-canada.html

I wanted to add this one as well. There seems to be this perception that big pharma companies are trying to scare us into getting these vaccines so they can make money. Which is possibly true. What I've found really irritating though is that I've seen just as much if not more fearmongering among the natural health folks about how this vaccine is oh so dangerous and we should avoid it at all costs - while at the same time accusing the mainstream media of fearmongering! Annoying. So I'm finding it interesting to see that they're getting rich off this too. Also really liking what the naturopath has to say in this article.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/04/nb-natural-medicine-h1n1-652.html

I'm so not sure where I stand on the vaccine, or whether or not I'll be getting it for my kidlets. I'm definitely getting it for me, because the severity of H1N1 so far in people with chronic asthma has been scary to me, I've had bad asthma since I was a kid, and the only times it acts up is if I exercise or if I'm sick, and when it acts up when I'm sick, I can barely breathe as it is. So I'll definitely be getting it for myself. Not sure yet if I want to chance it with my kids. Maybe Theodore, since doctors have already brought up that they think he has asthma, and like me, whenever he gets sick, it hits his lungs first. However, it could be enough that he is still nursing (at 2, wow, child led weaning is taking forever) and will get some immunity from my getting the shot.

I'm trying not to listen to hysteria on either side. My family has already consulted a doctor they trust, as he also teaches medicine at the university here, and he recommended we all get it, but I'm still taking that with a grain of salt and thinking more about if I will for my kids.

My kids ARE up to date on all their other vaccines, though we don't do the yearly flu vacc. I am worried at times about the chemicals, but I try to weigh the risks and decide what works for us personally. I feel that in certain occasions, the risk of the vacc is a lot less then the risk of the cold.

We have chicken pox in the house right now, Shawn is getting over shingles, which is when chicken pox lays dormant for years then comes out as an adult, and both our kids are vacc'd, and even with it in our house in close contact they have not gotten it. So that already, the fever for half a day that came with the vacc has already paid off and saved us missed work and school.

Funny, chickenpox is going around here too. There are so many things going around this fall.

Got me my nonadjuntivated vax today! And DD got the adjuntivated version. I'm glad it's out of the way. Immunity's not supposed to kick in for another 10 days or so though, so I still have to be hyper-cautious at school where everyone seems to be sick.

That's awesome that you were able to get the unadjuvanted one. I didn't even know they were distributing it yet.

update to my life *****

The whole family except for Gabe got this stinky flu. It was horrible I had to call off of work Wensday and J and syd had it friday thru today. I swear my kid is like a little monster when hes sick ( I haven't heard so much whining in my life). It was pretty bad but nothing a bottle of nyquil couldn't kick. ( we are also fairly healthy people with no underlying issues that could have been affected by the flu) I wouldn't want to get it again though.

They got the unadjuvanted one in last week from Australia, got out to the clinics this week as far as I know. From the information sheet they gave me, it's just the same flu shot they have been using in Australia for years, only with the dead swine flu virus in it instead of different seasonal flu strains.